See the Barrier
People cannot remove a barrier that an organisation refuses to recognise.
INSPIRATIONAL SPEAKER PROFILE
Stacey Copeland.
Commonwealth Boxing Champion | Former England Footballer | BBC Broadcaster | TED Speaker | Founder of Pave The Way
From being told girls could not box to representing England in two sports, making British boxing history and building a career around equality, communication and positive change.
Stacey Copeland is a former international footballer, Commonwealth boxing champion, broadcaster, commentator, two-time TED speaker, campaigner and founder of the Pave The Way charity.
Her career is unusual not simply because she reached elite level in two sports, but because much of her journey took place in environments where girls and women were still fighting for the right to participate on equal terms.
As a child she loved boxing but discovered that the competitive route available to the boys around her was not open to her. Football became the pathway through which she first represented England.
Years later she returned to boxing, represented England and Team GB, won three national amateur titles, became a European silver medallist and then made history as the first British woman to win a Commonwealth professional boxing title.
Today Stacey uses those experiences across broadcasting, speaking, education and charity work to explore equality, confidence, gender stereotypes, belonging, performance anxiety, adaptability and what practical inclusion actually looks like.
England
Football & Boxing
European
Silver Medallist
5–0
Unbeaten Pro Boxer
2× TED
Public Speaker
A CHILDHOOD INSIDE SPORT
Stacey loved boxing before boxing was ready for girls like her.
Born in 1981
Stacey Copeland was born on 19 August 1981.
Public sporting biographies record London as her birthplace, while her life and sporting identity became closely rooted in Greater Manchester.
Tameside from age ten
Tameside Sports Network records that Stacey has lived in Tameside since she was ten years old.
She attended after-school sports sessions at Godley Primary School and holiday activities at Hyde United while pursuing an early love of football.
Boxing was already in the family
Stacey's connection with boxing began much earlier than her competitive boxing record suggests.
Her father, Eddie Copeland, was a boxer and her grandfather ran a boxing gym in Bredbury.
Stacey has described being around that gym from approximately seven years old.
Third-generation boxing heritage
Boxing was not a novelty in the Copeland family.
Manchester boxing sources describe Stacey as the third generation of the family to enter the ring.
But she could not simply compete
Stacey has recalled asking her grandfather about becoming a registered boxer and learning that girls were not allowed to compete in the way boys were.
The experience became one of her earliest encounters with a barrier created by gender rather than ability.
WHEN DIFFERENCE BECOMES A MESSAGE
The barrier was not only in the rulebook.
Gender stereotypes arrived early
Stacey has spoken openly about comments she experienced growing up because her interests did not fit traditional expectations about girls.
One comment might seem insignificant.
Repeated often enough, however, small comments can change how somebody understands themselves.
The cumulative effect
Stacey has described this using the idea of “death by a thousand cuts”: repeated messages that individually seem small but collectively affect confidence and belonging.
Her grandfather modelled something different
Stacey has credited her grandfather with holding unusually progressive views about gender for his generation.
He encouraged the women in the family to pursue practical, sporting and professional interests without defining what they should do according to gender.
That contradiction shaped the future campaigner
Stacey therefore experienced two messages simultaneously.
At home she was taught: you can do what you are capable of doing.
Outside that environment she frequently encountered: girls do not do that.
Much of her later work has been about closing the gap between those two messages.
FOOTBALL BECOMES THE OPEN DOOR
The sport that allowed Stacey to compete became her first elite career.
An unexpected injury
Stacey has told the story of breaking her shoulder after attempting a move inspired by The Karate Kid.
The injury interrupted boxing activity.
Stockport County girls
During that period Stacey discovered that Stockport County had a girls' football team.
Football gave her something boxing could not yet provide: an organised competitive pathway.
Finding her tribe
Stacey has described arriving at football training and meeting other girls who were equally passionate about the sport.
It gave her a sense of belonging.
She no longer had to justify why a girl wanted to compete. The other players already understood.
Structure creates opportunity
The Football Association was developing stronger structures around women's football.
That meant teams, competitions and a route to progress were becoming visible.
Stacey naturally moved towards the sport in which a pathway actually existed.
FROM STOCKPORT TO ENGLAND
Football took Stacey from Greater Manchester to international competition.
England Under-18s
Stacey progressed far enough to represent England at Under-18 level.
She has described the pride of standing in the England line-up while also remembering how comments from people outside women's football had made her question whether the achievement was somehow less important.
Women's Premier League
Stacey's official football biography records appearances in the top levels of the English women's game for clubs including:
- Manchester City
- Doncaster Belles
- Tranmere Rovers
Women's Charity Shield
She played in the first women's Charity Shield final when Doncaster Belles faced Arsenal.
FA Cup finalist
Her football achievements also include reaching an FA Cup final.
United States scholarship
Stacey received athletic scholarship opportunities in the United States, with experience in Texas and South Carolina.
Her official profile records Peach Belt and Lone Star Conference recognition as part of that American chapter.
Sweden
She later played in Stockholm for Vasalunds FC.
Two countries, different environments
Playing abroad exposed Stacey to different sporting cultures and strengthened a lesson that appears repeatedly in her speaking:
talent does not operate in isolation; environment affects whether talent gets the chance to grow.
RETURNING TO THE FIRST LOVE
The opportunity that did not exist in childhood eventually became available.
Women's boxing changes
By the time Stacey returned seriously to boxing, the sport had changed dramatically.
The legal and institutional battles fought by pioneers such as Jane Couch had opened competitive opportunities that Stacey had been denied as a girl.
Starting late by elite-sport standards
Stacey was already an experienced athlete but a late starter in competitive boxing.
Boxing News has recorded that despite being around a boxing gym from childhood, she did not have her first competitive boxing bout until approximately age twenty-nine.
Transferable athletic intelligence
Football could not teach Stacey how to box.
It had, however, already taught her about conditioning, competition, coaching, recovery, teamwork and performing when the result mattered.
Following the family path
When Stacey began winning national boxing titles, she was also continuing a family tradition.
Her father Eddie had himself won major amateur honours.
ENGLAND & TEAM GB
A late competitive start became an international boxing career.
England and Team GB
Stacey went on to represent her country in boxing as well as football.
Her official sporting record lists both England and Team GB representation.
Three national ABA titles
Stacey became a three-time National ABA Champion.
Multi Nations gold
She won a Multi Nations tournament in Serbia and was also named best boxer of the tournament.
Haringey Box Cup
Stacey became a two-time Haringey Box Cup champion.
Swedish International Box Cup
She also won the Swedish International Box Cup twice.
Bucharest 2014
At the Women's European Championships in Bucharest, Stacey reached the 69kg final.
She finished with European silver after facing Elena Vystropova.
One athlete. Two England shirts.
Representing the country in two different sports gave Stacey a rare perspective on performance environments.
Talent remained important in both.
But culture, opportunity and perceptions around women could feel very different depending on the sport and the moment in history.
PROFESSIONAL BOXING
Five fights. Five wins. One historic championship.
16 June 2017 — professional debut
Stacey made her professional debut against Borislava Goranova in Manchester.
She won on points.
Ester Konecna
Stacey followed the debut by defeating Ester Konecna on points in July 2017.
Klaudia Vigh
In November she stopped Klaudia Vigh in round two.
Dora Tollar
A first-round stoppage of Dora Tollar in March 2018 moved Stacey to 4–0.
Harare — 13 July 2018
Stacey then travelled to Zimbabwe to challenge South Africa's Mapule Ngubane for the inaugural Commonwealth female super-welterweight championship.
Ten championship rounds
Stacey won by unanimous decision after ten rounds.
Reported judges' scores were 98–91, 98–93 and 97–92.
British boxing history
The victory made Stacey the first British woman to win a Commonwealth boxing title.
5–0
The Ngubane fight became the final contest of Stacey's professional record.
She finished professional boxing undefeated at 5 wins and 0 defeats, with two stoppage victories.
RETIRING FROM COMPETITION
Leaving sport did not mean leaving the issues sport had taught her to see.
January 2021
Stacey announced her retirement from professional boxing in 2021.
Her competitive professional record remained perfect: 5–0.
The identity question
Leaving competitive sport can create a difficult transition.
Athletes spend years measuring progress through training, selection, competition and objective results.
Retirement removes that familiar framework.
A wider purpose was already developing
Stacey had begun building her work in equality, communication, education and broadcasting before her boxing retirement.
That meant the next chapter was not an attempt to replace sport with something unrelated.
It was an opportunity to apply what sport had taught her to a wider audience.
Athlete becomes advocate
The focus moved increasingly from what Stacey could achieve herself to what barriers could be removed for other people.
PAVE THE WAY
Challenging the stereotypes that quietly narrow people's futures.
Founded in 2017
Stacey established Pave The Way in 2017.
What began as work focused on highlighting women in sport developed into a wider movement around gender stereotypes.
Registered charity
Pave The Way later gained registered charity status.
Its current registered charity number is 1188954.
The mission
The charity states its mission as:
challenging gender stereotypes of girls, boys, men and women to lift barriers to human potential.
Not only women
Stacey's equality work deliberately includes the ways stereotypes can restrict boys and men too.
Traditional expectations about confidence, emotion, careers, parenting, appearance and sport can reduce opportunity for everybody.
From role model to systems thinking
Visibility matters.
But Stacey's work goes further than telling young people to be confident.
It asks adults, employers, educators, media and institutions to examine the messages and structures that shape what young people believe they are allowed to become.
WATCH STACEY'S TEDx TALK
Why gender should never be a barrier to human potential.
Stacey's TEDxManchester talk brings together childhood, football, boxing, stereotyping and the thinking behind Pave The Way.
PERFORMANCE ANXIETY
Confidence is not the absence of doubt.
A second TED talk
Stacey has delivered two TED-format talks.
Her earlier TEDxRNCM presentation, A Fighter's Guide to Performance Anxiety, explores the internal pressure behind public performance.
Elite athletes still doubt themselves
Medals and external confidence do not remove anxiety.
Performance environments often increase it because the athlete knows exactly how much preparation has gone into a single visible moment.
Useful anxiety versus paralysing anxiety
Pressure can sharpen preparation and attention.
It can also become destructive when internal narratives overwhelm the ability to perform.
Corporate relevance
The boxing ring is dramatic, but the underlying mechanism is familiar to anybody preparing for:
- a major presentation,
- a promotion interview,
- a difficult leadership conversation,
- a public pitch,
- or a high-stakes decision.
Confidence becomes more sustainable when people learn to perform with nerves rather than waiting for nerves to disappear.
FROM ATHLETE TO BROADCASTER
The competitor became the person describing the action.
BBC Radio Manchester
Stacey has worked as a broadcaster with BBC Radio Manchester since 2018.
Her official media profile records experience presenting the late show and later hosting or contributing to programmes including:
- Tuesday night football
- Rugby League Extra
- Total Sport
Wembley and major football coverage
Stacey has presented live from Wembley for major men's and women's football occasions and has covered matches from venues including the Etihad and Old Trafford.
BBC Radio 5 Live
She has anchored boxing fight-night coverage for BBC Radio 5 Live.
FightZone
Stacey's official biography identifies her as a lead boxing commentator for FightZone TV.
Her commentary work has included British, Commonwealth and European professional title fights.
Sky Sports
She has also worked across Sky Sports boxing coverage as a presenter and pundit.
STACEY COPELAND TODAY
Broadcasting, speaking and social impact now sit at the centre of the work.
Freelance broadcaster and presenter
Stacey's current official profile describes her as a freelance broadcaster, presenter and commentator working across outlets including the BBC and FightZone.
Granada Reports
She presented the Paving The Way sports series for Granada ITV, interviewing women in sport from the North West.
Netflix
Stacey featured in the documentary Game On: The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport.
The documentary was later a finalist at the Broadcast Sport Awards.
European Parliament
Stacey has taken her equality message beyond sport and broadcasting into international policy environments, including speaking at the European Parliament in Brussels.
United Nations
She has also spoken at the United Nations in Geneva about women in sport.
Schools, prisons, communities and companies
Her public-speaking experience spans major organisations as well as settings where access to role models and personal stories may be particularly powerful.
Her official site records talks for businesses, schools, prisons and community groups.
Storytelling as the common thread
Football, boxing, radio, television and keynote speaking all use different skills.
What connects them is the ability to communicate under pressure and create a meaningful connection with other people.
THE STACEY COPELAND MINDSET
Eight lessons that travel beyond sport.
Question the Assumption
“That's just how it is” is often the sentence that allows an outdated system to survive.
Belonging Changes Performance
Stacey's move into girls' football showed what happens when somebody finally reaches an environment where participation does not require constant explanation.
Confidence Is Built
Confidence grows through preparation, experience and repeated evidence that difficult situations can be handled.
Adapt Without Losing Yourself
Football, boxing, broadcasting and campaigning required different skills without requiring Stacey to abandon her core values.
Representation Matters
People expand their idea of what is possible when they can see somebody like them already occupying the space.
Language Shapes Culture
Small comments, labels and assumptions communicate who an environment believes belongs there.
Pave the Way Behind You
Personal achievement becomes more meaningful when it makes the next person's route easier.
KEY SPEAKING TOPICS
What Stacey Copeland brings to the room.
Equality & Inclusion
Moving inclusion away from policy language and into the everyday opportunities, messages and behaviours people experience.
Breaking Gender Stereotypes
Understanding how expectations about women, men, girls and boys quietly shape confidence and opportunity.
Belonging
Why talent is easier to express when people no longer spend energy proving they deserve to be in the room.
Confidence
Building confidence through action and preparation rather than waiting until self-doubt disappears.
Performance Anxiety
Managing nerves, internal pressure and the fear of public failure when performance matters.
Resilience
Recovering from rejection, injury, stereotypes and disappointment without pretending they have no emotional impact.
Adaptability
Moving from football to boxing to broadcasting while transferring the best learning from each environment.
Women in Leadership
Visibility, authenticity and creating pathways in environments historically dominated by men.
Role Models
Why visible examples can alter what children and adults believe is realistically available to them.
Positive Change
Turning frustration with an unfair system into practical actions that improve the environment.
Communication
Lessons from broadcasting and speaking about clarity, listening, storytelling and connecting with very different audiences.
High Performance
What two elite sports taught Stacey about preparation, standards, feedback and performing under pressure.
CAREER & LIFE TIMELINE
Footballer. Boxer. Champion. Broadcaster. Campaigner.
Born
Stacey Copeland is born in England; public sporting biographies record London as her birthplace.
Boxing family
Grows up around the sport through father Eddie and her grandfather's boxing gym.
Inside the boxing gym
Begins spending time around her grandfather's gym in Bredbury.
Tameside
Tameside Sports Network records Stacey living in the area from this age.
Girls cannot compete
Discovers that the boxing pathway open to boys is not yet available to her.
Stockport County football
Finds organised girls' football and a competitive sporting pathway.
Football progression
Develops through elite club environments.
England Under-18
Represents England at youth international level.
Tranmere Rovers
Competes within the top levels of the women's game.
Manchester City
Plays for Manchester City's women's side.
Doncaster Belles
Plays for one of the historic names in English women's football.
Women's Charity Shield
Features in the first women's Charity Shield final.
FA Cup finalist
Reaches a major domestic final.
Athletic scholarship
Takes her football career into American collegiate and semi-professional environments.
Vasalunds FC
Plays in Stockholm and adds another international sporting environment to her experience.
First competitive boxing bout
Finally begins the competitive boxing career that was unavailable in childhood.
England & Team GB
Represents her country for a second sport.
Three National ABA titles
Becomes a three-time national champion.
Multi Nations gold
Wins international gold and best-boxer honours in Serbia.
European silver
Reaches the 69kg final at the Women's European Championships in Bucharest.
Another national title
Continues the family boxing tradition by winning elite domestic amateur honours.
Pave The Way begins
Starts the initiative that develops into a registered gender-equality charity.
Professional debut
Defeats Borislava Goranova on points in Manchester.
2–0
Beats Ester Konecna.
TEDxRNCM
Delivers A Fighter's Guide to Performance Anxiety.
First professional stoppage
Stops Klaudia Vigh in round two.
4–0
Stops Dora Tollar in round one.
BBC Radio Manchester
Begins her ongoing broadcasting relationship with the BBC station.
Commonwealth Champion
Defeats Mapule Ngubane in Harare over ten rounds.
British first
Becomes the first British woman to win a Commonwealth boxing title.
Paving The Way TV work
Develops further into television presenting and sports broadcasting.
TEDxManchester
Delivers Why Gender Should Never Be a Barrier to Human Potential .
Pave The Way charity status
The equality initiative develops into a registered charity.
Boxing retirement
Ends professional competition with an unbeaten 5–0 record.
BBC & FightZone
Expands broadcasting, presenting and commentary work.
BBC Radio 5 Live
Anchors major boxing fight-night radio coverage.
Sky Sports
Works across boxing presentation and punditry.
Wembley broadcasting
Presents BBC Radio Manchester coverage from major football finals and semi-finals at Wembley.
Netflix documentary
Features in Game On: The Unstoppable Rise of Women's Sport.
European Parliament
Speaks in Brussels about women in sport.
United Nations
Takes the equality conversation to Geneva.
Current chapter
Works across broadcasting, commentary, public speaking, charity leadership and gender-equality advocacy.
AT A GLANCE
Stacey Copeland profile.
- Name
- Stacey Copeland
- Born
- 19 August 1981
- Roots
- Tameside / Greater Manchester
- Sporting family
- Daughter of boxer Eddie Copeland; grandfather ran a boxing gym in Bredbury
- First elite sport
- Football
- Football country
- England Under-18
- English clubs
- Manchester City, Doncaster Belles and Tranmere Rovers among her top-level clubs
- Overseas football
- United States and Sweden
- Swedish club
- Vasalunds FC
- Amateur boxing
- England and Team GB
- National boxing titles
- Three National ABA Championships
- European medal
- Silver — 2014 Women's European Championships
- Other amateur honours
- Multi Nations gold, Haringey Box Cup and Swedish International Box Cup titles
- Professional debut
- 16 June 2017
- Professional record
- 5 wins, 0 losses
- Professional stoppages
- 2
- Historic title
- Commonwealth female super-welterweight champion
- Historic first
- First British woman to win a Commonwealth boxing title
- Boxing retirement
- 2021
- Charity
- Pave The Way
- Charity number
- 1188954
- TED talks
- Two
- Broadcasting
- BBC Radio Manchester, BBC Radio 5 Live, FightZone, Sky Sports and other sports media
- TV
- Granada / ITV presenting and Netflix documentary appearance
- International speaking
- European Parliament and United Nations
- Core topics
- Equality, inclusion, gender stereotypes, confidence, resilience, adaptability, performance anxiety and belonging
- Speaking style
- Warm, direct, reflective, practical and grounded in lived experience
- Current roles
- Broadcaster, commentator, presenter, speaker and equality advocate
EVENT FIT
Where Stacey's experience creates the strongest connection.
Corporate Conferences
An engaging combination of elite sport, broadcasting and
lived experience of cultural change.
Equality, Diversity & Inclusion
Moving beyond abstract commitments towards behaviours and
systems people actually experience.
Women in Leadership
Confidence, representation and participating fully in spaces
historically dominated by men.
Leadership Programmes
Communication, bias, psychological safety and creating
environments where more people can perform.
Sports & High-Performance
International experience across two elite sports and the
realities of performing under pressure.
Employee Networks
Belonging, confidence, stereotypes and creating change from
inside an organisation.
Education & Youth
Role models, gender expectations, confidence and helping
young people imagine wider futures.
Inspirational Events
A history-making story told with warmth, humour and practical
relevance.
Multi-Speaker Programmes
Combine Stacey with complementary voices across leadership,
sport, culture and inclusion.
RELATED SPEAKERS
Continue the conversation around leadership, equality and performance.
FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS
Stacey Copeland speaker questions.
Who is Stacey Copeland?
Stacey Copeland is a former England youth footballer, European amateur boxing silver medallist, undefeated professional boxer, Commonwealth champion, broadcaster, commentator, TED speaker and founder of Pave The Way.
When was Stacey Copeland born?
Stacey Copeland was born on 19 August 1981.
Where did Stacey Copeland grow up?
Stacey has strong Greater Manchester roots and Tameside Sports Network records her living in Tameside from the age of ten. Her family's boxing gym was in Bredbury.
Was Stacey Copeland's family involved in boxing?
Yes. Her father Eddie Copeland boxed and her grandfather ran a boxing gym. Stacey spent time around that environment from childhood.
Why did Stacey Copeland play football before boxing?
Stacey loved boxing as a child but competitive opportunities for girls were not available to her in the way they were for boys. Girls' football offered an organised competitive pathway and became her first elite sporting career.
Did Stacey Copeland play football for England?
Yes. Stacey represented England at Under-18 level.
Which football teams did Stacey Copeland play for?
Her official football biography includes Manchester City, Doncaster Belles and Tranmere Rovers, along with experience in the United States and Vasalunds FC in Sweden.
Did Stacey Copeland represent England in boxing?
Yes. Stacey's official boxing record includes representing England and Team GB.
What did Stacey Copeland win as an amateur boxer?
Stacey was a three-time National ABA Champion, European silver medallist, Multi Nations gold medallist and winner of Haringey and Swedish international tournaments.
When did Stacey Copeland turn professional?
Stacey made her professional boxing debut on 16 June 2017.
What history did Stacey Copeland make?
On 13 July 2018 in Harare, Stacey defeated Mapule Ngubane to become the first British woman to win a Commonwealth boxing title.
What was Stacey Copeland's professional boxing record?
Stacey finished professional boxing undefeated with five wins, no losses and two stoppage victories.
When did Stacey Copeland retire from boxing?
Stacey retired from professional boxing in 2021.
What is Pave The Way?
Pave The Way is the charity Stacey founded to challenge gender stereotypes affecting girls, boys, women and men and to remove barriers to human potential.
Is Stacey Copeland a BBC broadcaster?
Yes. Stacey has worked with BBC Radio Manchester since 2018 and has also anchored boxing coverage for BBC Radio 5 Live.
Does Stacey Copeland commentate on boxing?
Yes. Her current official media profile lists professional boxing commentary work including FightZone and BBC platforms.
Has Stacey Copeland delivered a TED Talk?
Stacey has delivered two TED-format talks: A Fighter's Guide to Performance Anxiety and Why Gender Should Never Be a Barrier to Human Potential.
Has Stacey Copeland spoken at the United Nations?
Yes. Her official speaker biography records talks at both the United Nations in Geneva and the European Parliament in Brussels.
What does Stacey Copeland speak about?
Her topics include equality, inclusion, breaking gender stereotypes, belonging, confidence, performance anxiety, resilience, adaptability, role models and positive change.
What events is Stacey Copeland suitable for?
Stacey is suited to corporate conferences, leadership programmes, DEI and inclusion events, women's networks, sports conferences, schools, employee networks, awards events and fireside conversations.
How can I book Stacey Copeland?
Contact The Immersion Project using the contact page or email sue@theimmersionproject.co.uk .
VERIFIED SOURCES & FURTHER READING
Explore Stacey's journey in greater depth.
This profile has been built using Stacey's official website, boxing governing-body material, interviews, current charity information and established sports sources.
Stacey Copeland — Official Website
Current biography, sporting career, broadcasting, charity
and speaker work ↗
Stacey Copeland — Football Career
England U18, clubs, international football and awards ↗
Stacey Copeland — Boxing Career
Team GB, England, amateur championships and professional
milestones ↗
Stacey Copeland — Media Work
BBC Radio Manchester, BBC 5 Live, FightZone, Sky and
television presenting ↗
Stacey Copeland — Public Speaking
TED talks, United Nations, European Parliament and keynote
topics ↗
Pave The Way
Current charity mission, campaigns and registered charity
information ↗
Tameside Sports Network
Childhood, Godley Primary, Hyde United, Bredbury boxing gym
and community background ↗
British Boxing News — Paving The Way
Detailed first-person childhood, gender stereotypes,
football and boxing interview ↗
Manchester Ex-Boxers Association
Family boxing history and Stacey's delayed competitive
boxing pathway ↗
International Boxing Association
2014 European Championship silver-medal result ↗
England Boxing — Pave The Way
National-champion background and equality initiative ↗
TEDxManchester
Why Gender Should Never Be a Barrier to Human Potential ↗
TED — A Fighter's Guide to Performance Anxiety
Stacey's talk on pressure, doubt and performing under
scrutiny ↗
TEDxManchester — Stacey Copeland
Official TEDx speaker profile and Pave The Way context ↗
Women's Boxing Archive Network
National amateur championship history ↗
BOOK STACEY COPELAND
Bring equality, confidence and lived experience into a conversation people remember.
Stacey's story demonstrates what happens when somebody has the talent and motivation to participate but the environment sends repeated signals that they do not belong.
It also shows what becomes possible when people challenge those assumptions.
Her talks connect sport, broadcasting and social impact around one practical question: what opportunities are people missing because of assumptions we have stopped noticing?
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